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A Talk With Tom on CSA

A Forum Thread for GameBanana

Tom and I discussed on the problems of CSA and overall submission quality. Post your suggestions on how to improve CSA!

This is a discussion I just had with tom about the flaws of the CSA. I thought it would be interesting to share it with you and to see what your opinion is on the matter.

cluver47: hey Xero: hello Xero: I was looking at this skin earlier on http://www.fpsbanana.com/skins/90814 Xero: and at the comments Xero: This is a recurring problem on FPSB--a bad skin is posted, the community is fed up with these kind of skins, and they won't provide constructive feedback Xero: If I were to follow the rules and withhold or trash the unconstructive comments, I would be pissing several people off. After all, the site is filled with these kind of skins. Xero: I would also be giving the submitter a false sense of security. The submitter, seeing that the moderator is on his side, might assume that his work is perfect, and instead of seeking to improve, he might stagnate. cluver47: yeh cluver47: its dfifficult cluver47: i'd rather a crap skin than no skin at all, we should focus on ways of dealing with them without deletion Xero: We need to motivate people to improve their work. cluver47: yes cluver47: that is the key cluver47: well, we also need to better instruct people to be more tolerant of noobs cluver47: maybe we can disable comments for bad skins cluver47: yeh cluver47: disable comments and assessments Xero: I don't know about that Xero: that would further give them a false sense of confidence and security cluver47: and the skin goes into some noob zone cluver47: yeh true Xero: Sometimes it is necessary to be harsh to somebody in order for the person to change. Xero: Being harsh might have 2 possible effects: 1. the person is offended and leaves. If this is the case, it is likely that the person was never going to be useful to the community. Xero: 2. The person is offended but decides to retaliate by making more effort and improving. cluver47: yeh cluver47: well, then we allow harsh feedback, provided it is constructive and not abusive Xero: ah, but that's something the community doesn't do Xero: In general, whenever I decided to enforce the rules from A to Z Xero: that is, withhold anything unconstructive and abusive Xero: I noticed a decline in assessments. People would stop assessing altogether. Xero: The problem with these submissions is that there is nothing constructive to be said. Xero: And people who are usually constrictive refrain from assessing them Xero: or simply tire out (due to the number of these kind of submissions) cluver47: maybe it could be the role of skin critics cluver47: skin critics should generate a standard response to noob skins cluver47: with links to resources in their post cluver47: yeh cluver47: well what do you propose? Xero: like you said, it's difficult Xero: also we can't trust critics Xero: I think the critics system should be scrapped Xero: that is, keep EF but scrap the critics Xero: most people usually stop assessing as soon as they become critics Xero: and critics rarely assess poor submissions, because they want to protect their critic status and assessing poor submissions might draw an angry herd towards them Xero: But I know for certain that it's necessary to make the system harsher cluver47: yeh cluver47: ok, so we scrap critics Xero: You could automatically "gag" people who get say 5 submissions trashed in a row Xero: Maybe not call it gag, but restrain from posting skins if their last X number of submissions were all trashed. cluver47: yeh Xero: And while they are gagged, if they try to submit something you can tell them "Your previous submissions were trashed, the community thinks you need to improve. Check these tutorials" cluver47: maybe if any skin gets a low score the user can't post another skin for a certain time cluver47: they just get a message saying - "your last skin got a poor rating - why don't you spend more time on your next one?: cluver47: yeh cluver47: exacty cluver47: i like that Xero: Millenia submitted some skinning tutorials Xero: we can link them to that cluver47: yep Xero: maybe we can also simplify CSA Xero: there's a problem with the wording Xero: in particular the word "Approve" Xero: if you want to give a skin a 2/10, that's a low rating. I don't think that should be called "Approve" Xero: and that could also explain why so many people misuse the CSA--most of the time people will disapprove poor submissions, instead of giving them low ratings. Xero: if CSA was used perfectly, everything would be approved. Submissions that are against the rules would be disapproved. Xero: maybe disapprovals should be merged with the reporting system Xero: and approvals replaced with thumbs cluver47: yeh Xero: if you like the submission, thumb it up. If you don't, thumb it down. Calculate the rating of the submission based on the views, the number of thumbs. cluver47: yeh, maybe disapprovals should be separate from CSA, and CSA is just a rating, and the approve/disapprove words are removed cluver47: yeh, disapproval should just be a report button cluver47: you shouldn't need more than a certain number of disapprovals, a mod should be looking after the first disapproval Xero: Of course, make the report button very visible cluver47: yeh Xero: and if a submission gets reported several times Xero: it is sent to a pending section, to be reviewed by a mod Xero: the mod can then choose to accept the reports (and trash the submission) or disregard them cluver47: yeh Xero: Also, the reason why I suggested thumbs is that people don't use the whole range Xero: Most of the time, they either give a very low rating or a very high rating cluver47: well, that would change things significantly cluver47: i don't think you can give simply a thumbs up or a thumbs down, especially with custom CSA criteria cluver47: maybe it should be out of 5 rather than 10 Xero: ah, the criteria is another problem Xero: unfortunately, people rarely choose the right criteria Xero: I think you should keep the "Structured" and "Freeform" layouts, and remove the criterial layout. Xero: It makes it difficult for the submitter to choose the criteria, and difficult for the assessors to assess the submission properly Xero: Sometimes people will give you 0 if you chose the wrong criteria Xero: http://www.fpsbanana.com/skins/90957 cluver47: ok Xero: On top of that, you need at least 3 criteria cluver47: well, i'll think about it Xero: but what criteria are you going to choose for that skin? cluver47: i did implement it for a reason and i'd rather simplify or improve it than dump it altogether Xero: the model and animations are default, but he is still forced to choose at least 3. Xero: http://www.fpsbanana.com/skins/90952 Xero: another example cluver47: yeh Xero: "Functionality"...lots of people choose this one. Because it's fully functional, people will have to give you a 10/10 for that criterion. But some people will give you a 5/10. It makes the assessments inaccurate. cluver47: well maybe we need either a single 'overall' criterion or multiple criterion if the user wants that Xero: I think the rating should be overall, and not this detailed. cluver47: hmm ok Xero: we are mostly dealing with teenagers after all, I think things should be as simple as possible, as long as it's reasonable

Your thoughts? Tom is considering to change the CSA and this could considerably affect the workings of the site. Feel free to suggest improvements!

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  • fugitsu-blackhole avatar
    fugitsu-blackhole username pic Joined 13y ago
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    Good idea. This is actually constructive and could have a lasting effect on what comes onto this website.
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    Skimmed through, I like the idea of scrapping critics (EF is sufficient enough) and merging approvals with disapprovals. And I agree, giving someone a 1/10 and it shows that the user is approving of something doesn't make much sense. The CSA system should be more black and white, either it's good enough quality and keep up what you're doing, or you need to work on a few (or a lot) of things to be better.
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    Posted by NightStalker The CSA system should be more black and white, either it's good enough quality and keep up what you're doing, or you need to work on a few (or a lot) of things to be better.
    Exactly, this sums up the idea I suggested in the convo.
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    Posted by Xero
    Posted by NightStalker The CSA system should be more black and white, either it's good enough quality and keep up what you're doing, or you need to work on a few (or a lot) of things to be better.
    Exactly, this sums up the idea I suggested in the convo.
    Also, the part about linking people to tutorials, would that be the whole tutorial section, or specific ones? Say hypothetically someone's TF2 CTF map (I'm assuming this goes for all sections, just not skins?) is ruled bad, but improvable, the system would give the submitter links to some of the better TF2 Mapping tutorials on the site, or just to this?
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    Posted by NightStalker Also, the part about linking people to tutorials, would that be the whole tutorial section, or specific ones?
    I was thinking about specific ones, but the implementation details will be up to Tom.
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  • I suggest moar tits that we have...maybe a 1-5 star system?
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    I'm down on the critic scrap, there's not much of a benefit for it for anyone really. There should be some kind of way to actually make people's assessments feel important and have an impact on the submitter if it is not a good submission. The merger of approve and disapprove should've been done a while ago, it will make the system less confusing for some members and the rating system should just be back to a regular 0 - 10 scale without having to use multiple scales for different criteria and then have that rounded up into a score, it can end up giving the skin an unfair score. It's a lot easier if a user just chooses a rating on their own and then adds it, like 8 or 9. The system just needs to be more linear in other words, "Good Job, Keep It Up, or You're Doing It Wrong" type of ratings. If I understand the post correctly, then linking people to some tutorials would be an excellent idea for them to improve. Perhaps lock them out of the submission in that section for about 1 day if their submission gets trashed after 3 times or so, then show them a link to some tutorials while it's locked down for them. That time interval should be long enough for someone to read up on the basics and start practicing. One other good idea I have is to perhaps open up a subforum where users can show off their work and get some feedback. The WiP section doesn't seem to cut it, because the only people that go there are studio members working on a mutual project or people in someones watchlist. Allowing a user to submit their work in progress to some kind of subforum to get some feedback before hitting the submit button could work out just fine. You can also go all strict and have the skins approved (just like news back in the day), but that will probably make the users feel like they have no freedom and discourage them from submitting in the future or trying to improve.
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    I always try to make my posts constructive and give the person pointers on how they could improve their submission. Personally I view a constructive post with a rating of 7 to be much better than a useless post which gave me a 10 for seemingly no reason. Because if everyone thinks my stuff is perfect there is no way I can improve myself. I'm not a god, I know my stuff isn't perfect. I also know that other people know this too. So if someone gives me a lower rating but tells me how to improve, I am very grateful to them. The problem is, not everyone feels this way. I've had people backlash and have a complete cow because I didn't give them a 10/10. I'm not here to give them perfect scores, I'm here to help them improve on their work. But yeah, the CSA system is flawed. In the case of the skin that the OP posted, I don't think that the skin should even remotely be disapproved. The people who are giving low scores should be motivated in a positive way to help the skinner to improve on their work and give them tips on how to do so.
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    I hardly ever provide criticism for anything anymore for the fact that when I assess a skin a 10 no matter how the feedback is, or how perfect the skin is there is no reward for doing so. And when I see a shitty skin I think to my self " Ya know, I honestly would give it a rating but I'd have to request it to be EF'd rather than when they used to be looked over every day and EF'd without having to ask." plus most of the time they're just a re-skin of something which isn't worth my time.
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    I agree that the approval system needs drastically changed, but I think that approval criteria needs to stay. The whole point of that is to get members to rate submissions on the criteria that the creator wants to know about. For example, I create a spray. Its a nice spray but I think it may have been done before, or the art style is over-used; I choose originality as one of the criteria. This forces members to give that criteria a specific rating, and hopefully bit of typed feedback alerting me to whether or not I need to improve on this in the future. The flaw here is that submitters often don't care about improvement, and will just pick criteria that the community will have to give them a 10/10 for, and/or the community will just give 10/10s for each criteria and give a one or two sentence blurb for the feedback, not helping anyone. Not sure how this could ever be fixed, but the removal of rating criteria is a bad move IMHO.
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    This was somewhat of a thrill to read. ;) anyone else turned on? Oh, well Xero, you bring a few great points. But before I start:
    cluver47: and the skin goes into some noob zone
    Now; 1Xero: You could automatically "gag" people who get say 5 submissions trashed in a row Xero: Maybe not call it gag, but restrain from posting skins if their last X number of submissions were all trashed. I like this idea because if 5 submissions in a row are trashed from the same category happens, well, the person submitting should really step back and rethink it over. 2 cluver47: maybe if any skin gets a low score the user can't post another skin for a certain time This would be great with idea #1 up there. If that certain person falls into the category of 5 "dead submissions", they have a week dead period (gag). At the end of the gag, the user will be allowed to submit but the submission must be approved by a mod (bringing back the old skin approval process for the "special ones"). 3 cluver47: yeh, maybe disapprovals should be separate from CSA, and CSA is just a rating, and the approve/disapprove words are removed As Xero started to say about the approval, its not needed. Your score is what is important. If a member disapproves a skin, it should not effect the CSA rank, but a new disapproval category. Then the skin is flagged after a few disapproval. If x number of people disapprove, it will be deleted. 4 Xero: ah, the criteria is another problem Yes it is! But i don't quiet like the approach you have there. I think each category should have a set criteria. Simple. At the time of "Category addition", the member must submit a minimum of 4 criterias. Once this reaches the approval process, the mod must review it and adjust accordingly. Which leaves all the thousands of old Categories. We can add a couple standard criterias and have our mods go around and add the rest. 5 Xero: we are mostly dealing with teenagers after all, I think things should be as simple as possible, as long as it's reasonable Yup.
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    Just reading this thread made the ideas go wizzing through my head (albeit they aren't the best ideas). 1. Change it from 'Approve' to 'Rate' or 'Assess' 2. Change it from 'Disapprove' to 'Report' 3. KEEP THE SYSTEM 0.0 TO 10.0      If it's just 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, the rating system is going to be very vague. There is a major difference between a skin that is 'perfect' (5) and a skin that is 'good' (4) 4. If you want more people to rate/assess submissions, make it so they have to assess the skin to see what the overall rating/individual ratings are This will not only prevent people from rating high (or low) because of the overall rating or the rating of someone else, but will encourage them to rate if they are curious about what the skin has been rated. 5. You shouldn't be able to see who rated something a certain rating under Approvals. If someone notices that their friend rated it high, they might rate it high as well (These aren't [all] adults, remember?)
    Posted by Locutus. The problem is, not everyone feels this way. I've had people backlash and have a complete cow because I didn't give them a 10/10. I'm not here to give them perfect scores, I'm here to help them improve on their work.
    THIS!!! Sidenote: Did you really go through the effort to colour your name and tom's name a different colour :O
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    Xero: I noticed a decline in assessments. People would stop assessing altogether. Xero: The problem with these submissions is that there is nothing constructive to be said. Xero: And people who are usually constrictive refrain from assessing them Xero: or simply tire out (due to the number of these kind of submissions)
    This is so fucking true. And most of the time if you comment harshly on a obviously bad skin (especially if the submitter is a first time skinner) they fall back to the "I'm a noob, don't be so harsh" or "Don't rate if you don't like" comments, with the latter being almost the same as saying "Don't give a low assesment", even if it did deserve one.
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    Guess I'll throw in my 2 cents here. What I thought would be the best idea here is the rating system. Instead of approving or disapproving, just rate from 1.0-10.0. Also removing criteria is a great idea, because currently choosing the right or wrong criteria means a lot, if you choose the right ones it's easy to get a 10/10 or really high, even if the skin isn't that good, or if you put bad criteria you might get a low score even though it would deserve much higher. Another thing about rating is that mods often remove assessments that have low score and no proper feedback, as this is great it should go the other way around aswell, when rating 10/10 and no proper feedback given, admin should ask the person to provide better feedback, why is this submission ABSOLUTELY PERFECT. I know this is already done, but in my eyes, not nearly enough, skins just get way too many 10/10's from friends and people who'd rather give a 10/10 isntead of 9/10 even thought 9 already means exceptional. This brings us to the next issue. Guidelines for rating right there when rating. Something like what we have in the Rating guide. 0 - 4.9 The criterion has serious flaws. 5 - 6.9 The criterion is average. 7 - 7.9 The criterion is good. 8 - 8.9 The criterion is of high quality. 9 - 9.9 The criterion is exceptional. 10 The criterion is perfect in every conceivable way. Or at least have it link to this or possibly pop up on the screen if you don't have many assessments. It's often the new people who give either really bad ratings or really good with no comments or proper feedback. Now if the submission/skin falls into the 0-5 category after having at least like 3 or 5 (maybe more?) ratings, it could be either automatically trashed for poor quality, or it could be moved into a separate section where the average user doesn't have to see them. What was also a good idea is notifying people about their low quality work and giving them some help improving, by providing some advises and links to possible resources. We already have a search option for rating level of a submission, but this leaves the problem of unrated submission. There are a lot of unrated submissions out there, usually after time, they're not the great ones, since quality stuff usually gets attention and gets rated properly. Can't really think of a great solution for this but here are some thoughts anyway. We could have dedicated people looking thought unrated submissions and at least give them some rating. Or we could ask the community to be more active in the rating area, even if they aren't interested in those type of submissions (GUIs, Sprays, maps) So that those would get rated aswell, instead of just skins. Also, am I wrong, but do you need a certain amount of assessments before it actually gets a rating? to further help unrated skins, maybe just one assessment would be enough, I know this brings the problem of a skin getting one 10/10 and suddenly its the best rated skin of the site but hopefully more people will vote properly then. Another thing I liked was removing disapproved and replacing it with report. Tho as of now, at least on the forums, when trying to report a post, I get this. "This post has already been reported and is pending moderation." Obviously that's not true, I doubt that every post has been reported :P After a submission gets reported a mod or an admin should look at it, and if deemed poor quality or "illegal" proper action would be taken, but if a submission gets reported, say 3 times for low/poor quality, it could get automatically trashed. Now what the site needs is faster responses to serious reports, such as virus threats. If somebody posts a virus link, and it gets reported as a virus, it should be removed ASAP, priority number one above everything else moderator related. To be continued. --->
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    Someone wanted me to post so that they could double post. Don't mind me. I did enjoy the conversation tho.
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    Sounds good.
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    Aaaand here goes ---> What I didn't like was the idea of thumbs up or down for submissions, this could easily lead into thumbs down way too easily, or only thumbs up. People might give it a thumbs down just because they didn't like that the weapon had a scope, or that it wasn't the best color, or any other personal preference. Also the average user should be able to report an EF with a simple click of a button, this should apply to the forums aswell as the submission. What I don't like is that there are some people who make EF posts just for the sake of getting them, not that there's anything bad at that, both the site and the user benefits from that, but it seems kind of annoying when those people go to Xero's profile and spam it with EF requests. So instead of having to ask for EF from an admin or mod, it would be much easier to report them. And possibly if a post gets enough EF reports (3, 4, 5, more?) It would be automatically made EF. This might not work (abused, or nobody reports EF) then it could be removed, but it could at least be given a shot. Also when reporting an EF there should be a minimum character limit, so that really short posts couldn't be reported as EF. Also when I say average user, this could mean that not everyone can report EF, or maybe even rate/assess right away. Could be something like, "You need at least 5 posts before you can assess submission" or, "You need at least 10 posts before you can report EF" Or that you'd had to been on the site at least a week, or a month or so, to gain access to certain functions of the site. This way we could assure that people take the time to get to know the site a bit first, and hopefully make sure they actually read the instructions for rating and such. One more thing I had in mind was actually suggesting for new people to actually post their work with screenshots, models, textures, ideas, problems and feedback requests to the forum in a dedicated area, or to an actually part of the site with a dedicated area just for that, instead of as an actual release. Say when posting a new submission, you could choose this area, so it automatically get's submitted into this place where people can go have a look, and post their comments, without the skin actually being posted in the skins. After they receive the comments and help they wished for, they could trash them easily, or they could actually submit it as a skin/spray or whatever, if people who commented thought it was good enough to be submitted. This is kinda like WIP, but one step further really. This just comes from the idea of creating content but not releasing it, for practice sake, but if you don't release it anywhere, then you're not going to get constructive feedback, or any help/suggestions. Now I'm starting to think this post is getting long, I'm not expecting everyone to read it, but would be great if even xero did. (I might of forgotten some stuff, a lot of things in one post, it's very confusing :D ) Guess that was more than just 2 cents, haha :D
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    Posted by BigDog This was somewhat of a thrill to read. ;) anyone else turned on?
    Glad I wasn't the only one! Some good points raised, I'll be interested to see what happens now. I like the idea of a simpler CSA system.
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    As I understand it, Youtube had a very similar problem with people only giving the top & bottom ratings. A good video would always get 5 stars, and a bad one gets a 1, hence the retarded new thumb system in which you cannot see what others have rated a video until you yourself have chosen either thumb. As for the criteria, I just think you need to have it gigantic flashing letters, explaining exactly what they are. Or, just remove the default criteria so people have to manually choose 3 & cannot accidentally overlook it.
    Posted by trademyheroes Sidenote: Did you really go through the effort to colour your name and tom's name a different colour :O
    Most word processors have a 'replace' tool so you can change, for example, every Xero with <Β class=blue>Xero very easily :P
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    Posted by ipad 0 - 4.9 The criterion has serious flaws. 5 - 6.9 The criterion is average. 7 - 7.9 The criterion is good. 8 - 8.9 The criterion is of high quality. 9 - 9.9 The criterion is exceptional. 10 The criterion is perfect in every conceivable way.
    Nice scale; I'm gonna have to write that down and use it in future reviews. :D
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    Posted by Locutus.
    Posted by ipad 0 - 4.9 The criterion has serious flaws. 5 - 6.9 The criterion is average. 7 - 7.9 The criterion is good. 8 - 8.9 The criterion is of high quality. 9 - 9.9 The criterion is exceptional. 10 The criterion is perfect in every conceivable way.
    Nice scale; I'm gonna have to write that down and use it in future reviews. :D
    This is directly from the Rating Guide
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    I'd like to see this applied, I liked the 5 submissions trash and restrain, like saying "this is not good, though if you want to improve I give you this, this and this to learn to do some quality stuff". I feel the end of fucking rainbow reskins...
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    I didn't read all the comments so I may repeat what another said but, if this concept could be applied as well to maps, that would be great.
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    5 times deletion and then gag is too much. The user should notice it faster that he has to improve it skills. 2 chances are more than enough. If the submission is still bad and gets deleted gag him for a day of 3. And I like the idea of linking to a few tutorials. Or maybe we should have a big thread with all the good tutorials so we link to the thread.
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    I don't like the Thumbs system. I think how it should work is the current system with default categories and we can make them more applicable to sections with criteria as the section demands. I'll put an example for a skin: - Submit Skin - Please choose the criteria that best describe your submission to the [Skins section]: - New Model - New Texture - New Animation - Other
    Upon choosing each criteria are added: - New Model - Model - New Texture - Texture - New Animation - Animation - Other - List of choices They can then quickly have the criteria setup for their model meaning those who are unsure don't have to delve in. In submitting my skin I can just hit the checkbox for "New Model" and "New Texture" but I'm using someone elses animations reorigined. I can then check the Other box and add criteria such as originality or realism if I feel they are appropriate. The important criteria however are there on a plate. This would be repeated for sections like maps etc. It would take some initial work but would eliminate the wrong criteria problem. Then I suggest people simply assess according to the criteria. The buttons are: - Assess - 1-10 on each criteria - Report - Report on one of the current Disapprove options I like the gagging system. Seems good. I don't think there's anything wrong with EF atm. There is actually a dedicated section in the reports section to EF recommendations which I and many others use to recommend EFs.
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    I rarely assess anything these days. Mainly due to the skin section literally just swarming (Probably 3 out of 5 are below average) and it would simply just take too much time to re-write stuff and explain why and what kind of flaws, and put in some realistic and constructive talk on how it could've been improved and also linking to references and tutorials. Then again, one does not become the next Thanez from reading a tutorial. This usually gets annoying for people who try and their result is worse than the author of the tutorial. I've done textures for around 2 years and I can hardly say I am really satisfied with myself. Digital work takes a lot of practice and a lot of trial and error, really. I find one could make some section or article about what one should focus on when doing digital artwork. Such as: Showing some more advanced and more simple made textures, models and animations people have done over the years Encourage the individual to practice, study and respect criticism and also take something positive from experienced people. Gathering a bunch of tips, guides, realistic references, theories and etc to improve knowledge of such. I reckon stuff said above could be expanded quite alot. People usually start very simple and do camouflage overlays or similar on default models or existing ones. While this was innovative maybe 6 years ago it is not really appropriate today to do them I find, simply because a lot of numbers of skins can be equal to the new and just makes it repetetive and takes up space. I do not know if making a "rule" against stereotypical overlays and recolors would be appropriate since it would give people a bad feeling. Then again I strongly find something should be done against the large increasing numbers of poor replacements that rarely get downloaded. I would also recommend something as a notifier for credits to be implemented in some way. IE. when a person creates something with another one having had its part in it without his/her knowledge, you will get a notification if credits have been added on something. In some cases on the other hand people don't credit people who have done something in their work. A simple text or whatever noticable.
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    ^What he said
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    I have already done one EF because of this thread, go me! :P It's actually quite fun writing the critique paragraph when you get into the swing of it.
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    I think the problem is that all assessments are relative. I find it hard to compare skins when they have similar ratings but with a huge difference in quality. For example these two skins have the same rating but there's obviously a difference in the amount of effort put in. Perhaps rather than having a limited standard between a 1-10 range it should be infinite either based on its popularity could be an alternative and then reward good feedback points with the thumb system and display them similar to the youtube comments layout. Just a thought.
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    Glad to see critic ratings gone. I'd hate to have seen myself as a critic since I usually asses things with effort at times while others, it's more casual.
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    A problem with changing CSA is what happens to the thousands of old ones?
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    Posted by Zakk A problem with changing CSA is what happens to the thousands of old ones?
    Their rating stays? Where's the problem?
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    Posted by ipad
    Posted by Zakk A problem with changing CSA is what happens to the thousands of old ones?
    Their rating stays? Where's the problem?
    The old ones that use the normal CSA might have an advantage over newer skins, thus the rating not being truthful... That's what I think, but idk...
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    I would make some sort of seal to say their from an older system.
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    This is a bit offtopic: But, why haven't ipad, gameripper, and Grall get exemplary feedback?
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    Yeah, "Noob zone" could help us.
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    Here are my thoughts. Make an "Official" tutorial for certain things people need to know for skinning/mapping/whatever it may be written by someone who knows how to properly write a tutorial. Then, make a check box system for "Constructive Feedback" that people can use, and the check boxes should just auto input feedback to the submitter like "Poor X execution. Read this tutorial for more information" or something. That way people can still be lazy and not really put much effort into assessing, but can also quickly provide the feedback to the author they obviously need.
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    Posted by Smokec0ke This is a bit offtopic: But, why haven't ipad, gameripper, and Grall get exemplary feedback?
    Because they hadn't posted when I EF'd things and no other mod has yet EF'd them. Also some of them are only borderline EF due to poor spelling and/or grammar. Just because a post is long doesn't always mean it is exemplary, the content is the important part. None the less I've EF'd them now.
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    Posted by Jonny-higgins
    Posted by Smokec0ke This is a bit offtopic: But, why haven't ipad, gameripper, and Grall get exemplary feedback?
    Because they hadn't posted when I EF'd things and no other mod has yet EF'd them. Also some of them are only borderline EF due to poor spelling and/or grammar. Just because a post is long doesn't always mean it is exemplary, the content is the important part. None the less I've EF'd them now.
    It seems like a lot of times people just make giant gaps in between each line of text in effort to make it appear that they've typed more.
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    Posted by cheezit
    Posted by Jonny-higgins
    Posted by Smokec0ke This is a bit offtopic: But, why haven't ipad, gameripper, and Grall get exemplary feedback?
    Because they hadn't posted when I EF'd things and no other mod has yet EF'd them. Also some of them are only borderline EF due to poor spelling and/or grammar. Just because a post is long doesn't always mean it is exemplary, the content is the important part. None the less I've EF'd them now.
    It seems like a lot of times people just make giant gaps in between each line of text in effort to make it appear that they've typed more.
    Hope you don't refer to me :D My post didin't even fit in one post, damn you 5000 character limit.
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    Posted by ipad
    Posted by cheezit
    Posted by Jonny-higgins
    Posted by Smokec0ke This is a bit offtopic: But, why haven't ipad, gameripper, and Grall get exemplary feedback?
    Because they hadn't posted when I EF'd things and no other mod has yet EF'd them. Also some of them are only borderline EF due to poor spelling and/or grammar. Just because a post is long doesn't always mean it is exemplary, the content is the important part. None the less I've EF'd them now.
    It seems like a lot of times people just make giant gaps in between each line of text in effort to make it appear that they've typed more.
    Hope you don't refer to me :D My post didin't even fit in one post, damn you 5000 character limit.
    No not you.
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    I agree with the critic scrapping part as it doesn’t serve any purpose and only having EF system is a better option. One thing I have noticed is large amount of submissions getting perfect or near perfect scores even when they clearly don’t deserve it just because of submitter’s friends assessing or because of people who feel like giving 10/10 to everything they find good (just like this guy). To prevent this I have come with an idea that every assessment that give a score of 9/10 or more must be supported by an EF otherwise the assessment will be discarded. This will help prevent the spamming of perfect scores as only people who have good knowledge of the submission type and have really tested the submission will be able to provide an EF, thus making the assessment a genuine one. Another change that will help is making sub categories in all submission types according to the rating. For example :- Under the Counter Strike : Source -> Maps -> DE there should be another sub category something like this:- 1. (8-10) Self explanatory 2. (5-7.9) Self explanatory 3. (0-4.9) Self explanatory 4. Un-assessed For submissions that haven’t been assessed even once. 5. Newest Containing 10 latest submissions submitted under the given category. This will help organizing the already choked categories in games like CSS, TF2, CS, etc. this will also help the high rated submissions get more views than others which they deserve, also the large sub category for (0-4.9) will make sure that submissions with extreme low scores don’t get completely neglected, also the newest category will help the new submissions from getting lost in the already vast library of submissions in this site and get good amount of views. For those thinking the use of un-assessed sub category, here is why it is required. As everyone knows there are a large number of submissions in this site that go un-assessed even after a long time has passed since their submission. So in order to encourage members to assess such submissions a new system should be implemented in which if a submission goes un-assessed for a given period of time (say a month or 2) from the date of their submission, the first three members to assess it will get 10 points each. This system will help a lot of submission get the status of assessed one and the time gap after which this thing becomes available will prevent its misuse.
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    Leave the ratings to people who are qualified to write assessments, and stick to a simple thumb- and comment-system for the majority of people who want to express their opinion without having to put ratings out of balance. It can be as simple as adding a minimum character limit for assessments, so that it requires at least some effort, instead of adding "Great!! :D" to both Pros, Cons, Improvements and Details just to sneak in a 10/10 rating. Critics should still be around to make "serious" reviews/assessments, which may help the submitter's work to get it's turn in the spotlight of the Features section on the website. Thumbs are more fitting to bump the attention of maps/skins that really stand out, and deserves a feature or a "professional" rating.
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    Posted by Archanor Critics should still be around to make "serious" reviews/assessments, which may help the submitter's work to get it's turn in the spotlight of the Features section on the website. Thumbs are more fitting to bump the attention of maps/skins that really stand out, and deserves a feature or a "professional" rating.
    Agreed. I really see little benefit in removing that system as it doesn't hurt anything but rather encourages some people to strive for the title by making more thorough and meaningful posts on submissions - for instance Locutus is trying to "beat" by map ef rank and to do that he's not spamming the system but rather going out and still doing proper reviews and helping out. So even if critics like myself go through busy points in their lives and can't rate submissions themselves, they can be a source of inspiration in a way, slightly twisted but still works for those who get their submissions reviewed. EDIT: Rest of toms plan seem very reasonable and I can see that helping out a lot; so, don't go taking my post as a "bashing" one against the whole concept he has in mind. I'm hoping it turns out for the best and improves our rather lacking CSA system.
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    It would also be good if one or two experienced members from each field were to help out as well (at least from who-ever's left) I know because I lived it, but at first I was afraid to ask questions because quite frankly I see it all the time: Some new member posts a thread asking a question, and maybe they don't have the best English, so their question comes out sounding a little weird and instead of helping we berate that member on quizzical little things like their English instead of helping them or providing decent feedback. While I don't see this all the time, I see it a majority of the time. I believe this is what may be drawing off all the newer members from asking for help because they see other users getting ridiculed for asking a question that other members have seen asked before, or that contains bad grammar or English. I just think asking questions should be more encouraged and other people should actually attempt to politely help, because I think if newer members see that others asking questions get the help they need and then some, they will be willing to ask questions, listen and take advice, and from there you might see an improvement in the quality of submissions. My two cents.
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    What ever is done, it wont change anything, it's always been a major problem on this site. at the end of the day, it's based on opinions, if you don't like it(even if somone spent hours on it, and artisticly is a great work) your still gona give it a shit rating. people like to get on their high hourses and pretend to be admins when it comes to this aswell it's hardly fair when you have 3 or 4 people saying somthing bad and half the time you don't even get a chance to have your say before it's trashed.
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    Posted by jason9jason What ever is done, it wont change anything, it's always been a major problem on this site.
    Pessimist.
    Posted by jason9jason at the end of the day, it's based on opinions, if you don't like it(even if somone spent hours on it, and artisticly is a great work) your still gona give it a shit rating. people like to get on their high hourses and pretend to be admins when it comes to this aswell it's hardly fair when you have 3 or 4 people saying somthing bad and half the time you don't even get a chance to have your say before it's trashed.
    Why would you give someone a shit rating on artistically great work? You would only do that if you were jealous or hated the person (or just by being an ass). I would agree that the rating system is too easily abused, and a lot of people just don't know how to use it.
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    You should make a vote, like if its a nub skin you can vote to change it to the nub section (after lets say 5 vote's, it gets moved)
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    Here's some suggestions based on my (limited) experience: 1) Change the way posts and assessments are tied together. Right now an anonymous ASSESSMENT may still appear as a named POST removing the point of anonymity entirely. If you want a credible rating system, anonymity is necessary, because it's the only way we're going to get honest low ratings. Maybe have two separate fields -- Posts, which have no ratings, and Assessments, which do. 2) Re-add "Low Effort" as a disapprove criterion. Whether you rename "Disapprove" to be "Flag," "Report," or something else, "Low Effort" should return as a criterion. In skins and sprays, a [i]huge[/i] chunk of submissions are stolen artwork from other people, brand names and logos, and "decoys." A person who puts actual effort into their work can't hope to compete, because one totally valid, conscientious "8" rating is going to lower their score compared to the guy who makes a Mountain Dew logo and gets buried in 10s from people who don't really understand what they're doing. A "Low Effort" criterion will let the site clean that dross away without having to re-educate thousands of users as to how the score system should work. 3) bScore is confusing, but can be reformed. First, the name. Why not just change it to "Critics Say" or something similar? Second, EFs are (appropriately) very rare, but there are submitters who have the skills and knowledge to belong as bScore submitters. Why not let people have bScore weight if they have X amount of submissions rated X high? You may want to weight the system since somebody who submits one absolutely stellar map very likely put in more work than someone who submitted one really great skin or spray. But however it's implemented, this will improve bScore feedback since it won't just come from the occasional posters who take the time to offer good feedback, but also from people who walk the walk by creating and submitting good material. If bScore ability is contingent on submissions, make it rebuild when someone's score or submission count changes. That way as people go through and start flagging and properly voting on crap submissions, people who have 10 "decoy" sprays and nothing else will lose bScore ability over time.
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    Freaper username pic Joined 12y ago
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    Something I'd like to see myself (might have been said before): You can only asses a skin after you've downloaded it. I find myself staring at the screenshots more than actually testing a skin ingame first, or at least skimming through the material files. This might complicate the assessment system, and make people not go through the effort of testing the skin. Maybe the submitter decides for himself, with a box he has to tick, if he wants his submission to be rated after a download, or not. my thoughts (also, very off-topic, but the front page doesn't list any threads for me, still, any clues?)
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