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Bullet Spread taken OUT of Counter-Life?

A Forum Thread for GameBanana

I was playing this fantastic Mod last night and noticed that when I actually aimed the M4 and fired... The shots HIT where I wanted them to go with little or no spread. It is a nice and tight field of fire which is even much more realistic than the original CS's random bullet projection -- Which can cause head shots when aiming at someone's foot! Am I imagining this, or is this something that the CL Staff purposely did to make CL more realistic than CS? If it is true, I want to commend Haunter and the rest of the CL staff for taking OUT the main thing that makes CS rely more on luck than skill and improving on it in CL. Kudos! :) Also, I was wondering... If you could do this for single player CL... Would it be possible to convert it (CL) to MP and create kind of like a new and improved CS -- Maybe CS Promod/CS 2003? -- with more accurate ballisitics, nades that don't kill you through a wall, real bullet penetration through proper surfaces and being hit with armor doesn't completely stop you (just stun you; not stop you)? These are the main things that, in my opinion, CS needs to start addressing since other, more recent realism based games have already addressed and if you did that, even more people would play CS than already do. Just a thought.

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  • Haunter avatar
    Haunter Joined 18y ago
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    I've fired some guns at the wall at SOF. And they are a little diamond shaped. So that should be OK. Except for Hitman, the M4 goes a straight line.
    Bananite
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  • CS Player avatar
    CS Player Joined 17y ago
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    How much is actual, recoil - simualted recoil of the weapon model - And how much is the actual bullet spread/path that's generated by the CL/HL/CS engine? I could be wrong, but I think those are two seperate elements. Meaning, I've played CS with the gun model turned off and to me, there was no recoil because without the model in my line of sight, I couldn't see it vibrating or "jerking up" as I fired. I didn't seem to be feeling any "recoil". In other words, I could be wrong, but it appears that recoil is just an illusion produced by the weapon model. BTW... I didn't know the weapons in HL also had bullet patterns. I thought they went in a straight line. Interesting. CS uses a "T" model for their random bullet pattern. Meaning, after a few shots it starts moving up and side to side (left or right) in random dispertion. This is exactly why you can get a head shot if you aim at someone's legs or feet because the "T" is as tall as the player model you're shooting at and the horizontal spread, the top of the "T", is often the one that randomly hits the head hit box. This is most evident if you're coming up a ramp - like on De_Dust - and your enemy is ABOVE you. Aim more toward his legs and feet and you will almost get a head shot due to the height difference the T pattern is making up for. This is where the myth that crouching increases your accuracy came from as well. It's a myth because you can get standing and even moving head shots - as we've seen the skilled players do this - As long as you know where to put that "T" pattern. The reason people crouch is to shorten the height of the "T" and inflict damage on the stomach and unarmored legs - And also increase the chance of the top part of the T-Spread hitting the players head. To answer your question, less is always more in the sense of realism. There can be recoil and bullet spread, but nothing as unrealistic as CS is today in my opinion. If you have other games like Soldier of Fortune II or Tac Ops, go onto a map - either SP or MP - Shoot holes at a wall and watch how close they are and compare that to CS. There's a big difference.
    Bananite
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  • Haunter avatar
    Haunter Joined 18y ago
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    Thank you. It's the players of the game which makes the difference, not the game itself. Where would CS be if no one plays it? BTW, how would you guys like the bullet spread? Want it to be like in Beta 3.5 but decreased recoil? Or like the 9mmAR in HL where the bullet spread is diamond shaped? Because now, the MP5, AUG, M4A1, AK47 and SG552 are damn accurate. But each have different bullet spread. For example, the AK47 has more spread than the M4. P.S. Waking me up => You've just opened my eyes. All this while I was living 'the matrix'. :)
    Bananite
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  • CS Player avatar
    CS Player Joined 17y ago
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    Haunter What are you doing up so early? Go back to bed ;) But seriously, in my opinion, I think the next step in CL's evolution is to go MP simply because even after playing the hundreds of user made SP levels with the Counter-Strike weapons and buy system... Nothing beats human vs. human competition. Also, you are the first Modder to actually listen to what I am saying about the many inherent flaws in CS with a mature and open mind. You don't have to agree with them since you're the one who develops the Mod as you see fit... But the mere fact you're willing to come to these boards and listen to the fans suggestions is a refreshing change from the more mainstream CS Community (which, I am sad to say, is full of immaturity and antagonism). In addition, like I said, I like CS as a concept... But being a veteran FPShooter gamer and having played other more recent games, it needs a "tune up". Especially if it is going to remain the number one online game and the only way I see that happening is by discussing some of these things with individuals like yourself who actually have the power to possibly do something about them (The CS Team isn't going to change these things because it's their game; "Why fix what works for a lot of people?" Problem is, the current system doesn't work for some of them like myself).
    Bananite
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  • Haunter avatar
    Haunter Joined 18y ago
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    Man, you've just woke me up. I can try to implant the MP version. But maybe later. Anyway, poll's over. Conclusion: Bullet spread from SMGs and assault rifles + Machine Guns will be tight. Not REAL tight, but tight.
    Bananite
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  • CS Player avatar
    CS Player Joined 17y ago
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    Originally posted by Haunter That might be tough. Because it's going to be hard to decide which server you want. Obviously, more will take the less-recoiled one. The only way I can think of is to give like addition 3% - 5% recoil in MP for the weapons in CL. Or may-be no MP for CL??
    Well, I think the fact is that you have to look at the big picture in terms of if CL goes MP who will be playing and why. It's safe to say that CL-MP would in no way replace the current Counter-Strike simply because most people don't have a problem with the random bullet spread and other thnigs I mentioned. (No offense to anyone, but a majority of these players are the younger ones - teens to early 20s - Who don't care how unrealistic the game is, nor do they take the time to read about how the game functions as a program; I.E. they don't believe there is random bullet spread at all and are willing to live with all the bugs that CS inherently has). CL, as a Mod, still caters to a smaller subset of the larger CS/HL community. And that's just fine. So this leads us to who would be playing MP-CL which would most likely be: A) CS players who want to "experiment" with what CS would be like if it was more realisitic. They may log on once or twice, say "This is fun, but I still perfer regular CS". That's perfectly fine. However, I believe CL-MP would primarily apply to... B) Players who like the concept of CS, but can't stand the random bullet spread and expect a more up-to-date combat simulation that addresses the issues I listed above in my last post that could be possibly fixed. Obviously, I fall into this category myself and I know there are a lot of other people who feel the same way both inside and out of the CS Community who, if you made a CL-MP game the way we're discussing, would flock to it and play it regularly. (Again, not to offend of stereotype, but most of these gamers are like me. They are older (late 20s) and expect more skill out of a game than chance, especially when going up against other live players on the net that's already full of additional variables of chance going on like ping, update rate, distance from the server, etc, etc). The basic philosophy is that even with more accurate aiming, it is still hard to hit a target that is running, ducking, jumping, moving back and forth and side to side which is the fun and challenge of all MP games... But that fun is hampered by the fact that if you have random bullet spread, that increases the chance of NOT hitting your target more than would normally be present). These gamers who I've talked to play games like Soldier of Fortune II and Tac Ops where they expect the bullet spread to be closer to real life and not random like in CS. That's who would be playing MP-CL if the CL Staff decides to take it MP in my opinion. It would be a smaller crowd, but like any Mod, if the Mod is done well, not only would it have its core fans, but gradually gain new ones depending on if the Mod had continued development and feedback. And sometimes a smaller crowd is good thing depending on who that crowd is (namely adults in MP-CL I think; I could be wrong). So, to answer your question, if it is possible, if MP-CL can be made, I would push for 0-3% inaccuracy on the weapons and nothing more. Again, the idea is not to be able to aim at someone's feet and get a head shot! :shocked: Obviously, I can sit here and request things like "Do this or do that" because I have no knowledge of how to program these thnigs so I will leave it up to Haunter and the CL staff to at least take into consideration some of my suggestions and other players suggestions to make the best MP-CL Mod possible.
    Bananite
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  • Haunter avatar
    Haunter Joined 18y ago
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    That might be tough. Because it's going to be hard to decide which server you want. Obviously, more will take the less-recoiled one. The only way I can think of is to give like addition 3% - 5% recoil in MP for the weapons in CL. Or may-be no MP for CL??
    Bananite
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  • CS Player avatar
    CS Player Joined 17y ago
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    As far as the poll goes... I think it all depends on how far Haunter and the CL staff want to take CL. For the single player I could live with assault rifles and submachine guns having no spread and pistols with normal or minimal spread (by default, the Glock-18 is the only weapon that fires in straight line I've read). If, however, CL branches into a MP portion... Either... 1) Apply no spread to all the weapons in the arsenal simply because why have your main weapons (rifles and submachine guns) dead on accurate and the sidearms (pistols) still shoot with wild random spread? That would be an inconsistency that has no other function than being just "there" when it wouldn't have to imo. Or... 2) If possible - given the CL/CS Multiplayer code - Make this a server side variable that can be set as part of the game. Those who want to host a game with others who want dead on accuracy can do so and others who want the traditional CS random spread can also do that as well. I think this option would be the best of both worlds and not splinter the gaming community if this ever comes to fruition.
    Bananite
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  • CS Player avatar
    CS Player Joined 17y ago
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    Haunter and CoFR|Necroscope First, thank you for not flaming me into the ground regarding the fact that while CS is a great game, it has some flaws that should be fixed given the Mod is almost three (coming upon 4) years old. I've tried to bring up the random bullet discussion on other CS message boards and am always greeted with, "If you don't like it, play something else and STFU Noob!" :roll: I brought it up not to flame the CS, but to express what a lot of other players - mostly older players like myself (late 20s+) - Have expressed about the one major thing that made them either leave the game or play more recent shooters like Soldier of Fortune II or Tactical Ops where the bullet spread is more realistic in terms of its simulation (because these are video games after all and not the real world). Second... I would like to discuss with you - Haunter and whomever else may be reading these boards with the desire and coding abilities -the possiblity of coding a new and improved version of CS from the CL source code because while every game has things that differentiate it from its competitors, CS has some things that were (are) actually mistakes/flaws that were never corrected from the betas and players just learned to live with them and since the Mod has gone retail, I believe it should be the best product you can buy (or download). If you want, I will start a seperate thread where we and others can discuss the specifics of an MP Counter-Life addition/Mod. But as far as this thread goes, for starters, these are the things that have been both documented on various sites and that I and other players have experienced through years of playing the game (in no particular order): 1) Random Bullet Spread and Hit Mark Errors Code the almost near accurate physics that Counter-Life has for the SP into MP and Counter-Strike would automatically be up to par with other recent games and attract even more people to play than it has now. If this was done, I could live with pistols being in accurate because that is realistic depending on the range of the target. Pistols are not ranged weapons with long barrels so error is to be expected a lot more. In addition, I know one argument against dead-on ballistics in CS is that this would turn CS into pure, one-sided rounds with only the best players being the ones dominatin. In other words, the random bullet spread gives average players a chance against the more skilled and evens the playing field. I disagree. Random ballistics increases luck as a factor more than skill based on the definition of the system alone: Random. I've played Soldier of Fortune II where the ballistics are like Counter-Life and it doesn't matter if you are skilled or not. You still have to learn to master your weapons and recoil to be a good player.... Which is what any game requires be it Chess or Counter-Strike... But the element of chance has been taken out since where you aim is where your bullets go so this in effect makes it a more even playing field than having randomized bullet patterns. 2) Grenades that don't kill you through a wall. How many times have you been camping by a doorway and got killed because a stray grenade that someone threw on the other side of a wall during a battle that landed near by, but was never intended for you? Granted, this could be the mappers fault, but to me, this again increases the element of luck vs. skill in that in the real world if you're behind a concrete wall - let's say the base of CS_Assault - And someone lobs a grenade on the other side of the wall and it explodes (depending on distance of course) - Chances are you wouldn't even know it went off, let alone feel any effect from it by either having your Health Points reduced or being completely killed by it -- Which I have seen and experienced playing CS ;) To me, this is a major flaw as it detracts from the "realism" that CS is striving for given its constraints. Last one... 3) Being Immobilized when Hit with Rounds I know the idea was to simulate the vibrations of the rounds hitting your body and body armor with this... But all this serves to do is basically make the playing field uneven again because it doesn't even give the person being shot a chance to fight back in terms of moving out of the line of fire. Yes you can move, but most of the time it's not fast enough and by the time your opponent is done spraying you with automatic fire you're dead (because it is not just head shots that kill; stomach, legs, arms, etc). Other games simulate the player being hit with rounds by depleting health and armor -- which I have no problem with -- But they also don't take away your chance to get out of the line of fire which evens up the field more and also, increases the pace of the game. And in a "one life" game like CS I think this would be a welcome addition: The tweaking of the damage to only stun, not totally immobilize. Those are my main "gripes" with Counter-Strike as it stands. I'm sure some of those reading are saying, "Don't listen to this Noob Mutha####a. He's a no talent ass Biatch. He wants to ruin CS. STFU!" That is not my intent. Again, I love CS and am addressing these problems because while it is a great game, it could be the BEST game if these things were taken care of and if Counter-Life has the ability to do this in a MP addition, than that is why I am posting here. I await any responses, flames or not ;)
    Bananite
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  • Haunter avatar
    Haunter Joined 18y ago
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    Looks like another poll is up. I give this until 30th September. We have yes : 2 and no : 0. Is that all? Only the assault rifles?
    Bananite
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    I'm with CSP. Single player, accuracy is where it's at. You can't have the crap spread of MPCS with CL, in CL it's just me against the machine, and man, I wanna be as tight as possible with those rounds. Haunter did that with the rifles, and I friggin' love it. Thanks man!
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  • Haunter avatar
    Haunter Joined 18y ago
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    Well, if more of you guys agree on these terms, I'll see what I can do. Edit: But only for the other guns. I've polled on the handguns and that will the way they will be.
    Bananite
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